Chemical Safety at Work - The Podcast

Ep. 20: The Future of Dangerous Goods: AI, Compliance & Safety

• Storemasta • Season 2 • Episode 20

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Navigating the Future of Dangerous Goods Compliance with David Irvine

The dangerous goods industry is evolving—are you keeping up? In this episode, we sit down with David Irvine, Director and Principal Consultant at Dangerous Goods Network and DG Trainer, to unpack the biggest changes in compliance and safety. We dive into:

🔹 AI and digital transformation in DG compliance
🔹 The rising penalties and industrial manslaughter laws affecting businesses
🔹 How insurers are reshaping dangerous goods storage requirements
🔹 The growing skills shortage in the DG industry—and what it means for safety
🔹 The most common compliance gaps (and how to fix them!)

With regulators taking a more proactive approach, understanding your compliance obligations has never been more critical. Tune in now for expert insights that could save your business from costly mistakes!

🎧 Listen now wherever you listen to podcasts!

Patrick Gee:

Welcome back to Chemical Safety at Work, the podcast where we discuss all things dangerous goods. This week, we were joined in the studio by David Irvine. He's Director and Principal Consultant at Dangerous Goods Network and DG Trainer. Dangerous Goods Network offers a range of services to help navigate the complex and ever-changing regulations and requirements around dangerous goods, while DG Trainer offers on-site and remote training to organisations across a range of industries. We discuss the future of dangerous goods compliance, AI automation and digital transformation, rising penalties and industrial manslaughter laws, how insurers shape dangerous goods storage, the DG skills shortage and what that means for safety and compliance, as well as the most common compliance gaps and how to fix them. We're excited to say that Storemasta recently partnered with Dangerous Goods Network and DG Trainer to offer a range of safety, compliance and training services. So, let's jump into the episode. Thanks very much again for joining us. How has the regulatory landscape for dangerous goods compliance changed in the past few years? What trends do you see shaping the industry moving forward?

David Irvine:

Y eah, I think the trends are like regulatory. You know, some of the areas that are really changing is really around like batteries, in particular, like the lithium batteries. We're seeing that there's a push there to make some changes and so, while those changes haven't sort of pushed all the way through, there's definitely like a desire there, especially from emergency response departments by every state. In particular, New South Wales are pushing hard for that. So we're seeing that. And I think the other thing that we saw over the last like several years is that most of the states have aligned under like the model WHS laws, which has been good for consistency, for storage and handling that is in each of the states, and Victoria is sort of the last holdout, but I'm sure that that will change at some point in the future.

David Irvine:

So, yeah, I think they're kind of like the key trends. And then, obviously related to that, you've also got the Australian standards continuing to update and so there's been some recent updates, like AS3833, which is for mixed classes of dangerous goods. That o an update last year and so and I know that there's some work getting done on like a like a lithium battery standard specifically as well, because that has historically been under class nine and so and that's pretty old, that standard, and so I think you know pressure from various groups. I think that we'll see some changes coming there too.

Patrick Gee:

Sure, with those chemical separation changes, how have you found implementing those into your job?

David Irvine:

Yeah, I think overall it's been fine. I think it depends on the nature of the business that we're working with and the complexity that they have and also the maturity that they have when it comes to the compliance. So, it's sort of really like a case-by-case basis and I think that you know, similar to other guests that you've had on the podcast as well, we see the whole range of you know from people that have no awareness at all and they only know after WorkSafe or the regulator rocks up to other ones where they're pretty mature and they just need a bit of fine tuning. So, I think it sort of depends on the complexity and the maturity of the customers, but I think in general, like, we understand it quite well and then so it's just working with the customers to implement the right solution for them.

Patrick Gee:

What are some of the biggest challenges that companies face when trying to maintain compliance with the regulations in regard to DG?

David Irvine:

There's quite a few things. I mean, I think one of the things that most of the companies struggle with that we work with is actually understanding and managing their sort of storage threshold. So, in every state your obligations are based on the amount and the type of dangerous goods that you're storing, and so obviously it'll go placarding. like manifest, and then if you're in Victoria, you've got the concept of fire protection and so knowing where they sit on that kind of scale, and then understanding that as you go up, obviously your compliance obligations escalate, and knowing, you know, the right things that you need to do, and so I think that that's kind of a pretty fundamental thing that people, you know, struggle with. So, when we go out and work with a client, we'll ask them, you know, what dangerous goods do you have on site? And they'll kind of know typically what they have and how much they have. But then how does that relate to the regulations? I think that that's where they struggle. So, I think that's probably the key one, and there's a range of other things. But I think understanding that is sort of like fundamental and once you have that, that's kind of like the foundation of your regulatory obligations and you can kind of build up from that. So, I think that's one thing that businesses struggle with.

David Irvine:

And then I think the other thing that we see is in particular, around training and understanding what sort of training needs to be done. And so you know, from a regulations perspective, under whether it's the OHS or the WHS regulations, in every state there is an overriding obligation that the employer needs to, you know, train and make the staff aware of the risks that they're exposed to and educate them about that. And so obviously, if you have dangerous goods in your warehouse or in your place of business, then you should be training people about that. So, I think that is often not well understood and then maybe the training that gets done is not the right type of training because it's not in sort of context for what they're doing.

David Irvine:

There's a heap of other things, but I think the other key one that I see a lot of is understanding how to, I guess, manage the risks, so like the overriding obligation, as well as to manage the risks in the workplace and so knowing how to actually go about and perform a risk assessment and then, you know, identify the right types of hazards and then understanding how the relevant Australian Standards can be used as like best practice risk controls and you use those to help manage the risk. I think that's another area that businesses kind of struggle with and where we typically get involved. But I think that would be kind of my three key areas, and I could probably rattle off a list of 20 other things, but that would be my top three.

Melissa Hampton:

What role do you see insurance companies playing in regards to dangerous goods storage and handling?

David Irvine:

Yeah, so that's an interesting one that that's been, it's always been there, but it's definitely where we're seeing that that is changing and insurers are becoming more prescriptive about what they need. So, especially when you have, you know, a storage facility or a warehouse where they have a lot of dangerous goods, the insurer is insuring you know tens of millions, potentially hundreds of million dollars worth of stock, and so then the insurers are actually typically putting on the business that's storing those dangerous goods a range of obligations over and above what, you know, the regulations in any state require. And so typically what we see is there's called the FM global standards, which is really based around loss prevention, and typically they're, I don't know, I'm going to say stricter or, you know, have higher levels of control than the regulations in any state do. And so often businesses are having to spend quite a lot on infrastructure. If their facility is not already designed to store dangerous goods and so they're trying to retrofit something, then that capital expenditure can be quite high and I think it's also getting the businesses to understand that. You know, what the insurers are worried about is obviously like loss prevention of property, and then the regulations are more focused around protecting humans and the environment and that type of thing, and often they overlap, but often they don't as well, right, and so it's kind of understanding what's driving that. But definitely we're seeing insurers are sort of playing a bigger role in dangerous goods compliance, and often when we go out and consult a customer, that's the first thing we'll ask them is you know?

David Irvine:

Does your insurer know, that you're storing dangerous goods at this property? Do they understand how much you have? Because that's something you need to check, like we'll ask them is you know? Does your insurer know that you're storing dangerous goods at this property? Do they understand how much you have? Because that's something you need to check like ASAP, if you don't know that already. And so that's typically one of the first questions we ask, apart from how much dangerous goods have you got and what is it? And two have you told your insurer and are you covered? So, they're probably the first two things that we typically ask are insurers paying much attention to lithium-ion batteries in your experience?

David Irvine:

uh, that's changing and so, uh, they definitely are.

David Irvine:

And I think that we can all see in the media and the news like the amount of incidents and fires that involve you, the lithium-ion batteries, is increasing and, interestingly, the FM standards actually came out with their own standard about, like storing and handling those types of batteries, ahead of any regulations or standards, so they're definitely at kind of the forefront of it.

David Irvine:

I think they came out with that it was before Christmas last year, right, so sort of like maybe four or five months ago they had already come out with that and I think that they can see that from a loss prevention. It's really risky because when, like a lithium iron battery, fire starts, then you've got that whole like thermal likeaway. It propagates to the other batteries and once those fires start, using conventional methods to extinguish them just literally doesn't work right and you kind of need to let the fire burn out and obviously the fire departments are focused on, you know, making sure everyone's out of the building, making sure the fire doesn't spread to surrounding properties. But I think that the insurers have seen that that's literally like probably their number one risk is if you're storing those batteries and we're seeing more and more products out in the world today have that type of you know tech in them, and the batteries are getting bigger right as well, and so I think that they, yeah, can see the risk there, so they're trying to control that as much as they can.

Melissa Hampton:

With industrial manslaughter laws and higher penalties in place, how do you see liability changing for businesses handling dangerous goods?

David Irvine:

Yeah.

David Irvine:

So I think the attitude there is changing for sure, and I think that you know most of the business owners or directors or senior managers that we go out and talk to.

David Irvine:

I think everyone is super aware that those laws are in place and when we start talking to them we're not trying to run a scare campaign, but you know, it doesn't take long for them to join the dots and realize that okay, well, if we don't manage our dangerous goods compliance effectively, then we're actually exposing not only the people who work here to a lot of risk, which obviously should be the primary concern, but actually if something happens, then whoever the director or the owner of that company that's ultimately responsible can get held accountable and in the worst case scenario of someone, unfortunately, if there is a fatality, then there's laws in place that they can be prosecuted under.

David Irvine:

So I think that we've definitely seen that kind of change in attitude of when we first go out and talk to people that they're sort of joining the dots on their obligations when it comes to dangerous goods and then, as they quickly sort of see that picture form in their mind, then they go oh yeah, we definitely need to do something, because it's the right thing to do, but also not only the industrial manslaughter laws, but you know, I think pretty much in every state in Australia you know the fines and the penalties are going up and I'm sure we'll get to it. But we're definitely seeing that the regulators are being more proactive and going out more, and so that's also kind of having a flow-on effect as well.

Patrick Gee:

Do you think there's a shortage of dangerous goods? Professionals.

David Irvine:

Yes, there is, and that's a bad thing overall. Like people might say, well, hey, you run a dangerous goods consulting business, so that's good for you and I think that we do find that we get a lot of calls, it's quite busy, but I think fundamentally overall for the industry it's not a good thing and I think that the challenges there are. I think there's a range of forces at play there. But I think one of the things is that typically, you know, dangerous goods consultants have come from like a chemical engineering background or some type of engineering background that might have been coming towards the end of their career. I know there's exceptions to that, but in general it's a pretty kind of ageing profile.

David Irvine:

I think part of the challenge is as well is that the nature of work now is that people don't work at places for 20 or 30 years anymore and you've kind of got this, you know, built up experience and knowledge inside of an organisation. People will tend to move jobs, you know, every two or three, maybe five years is considered a really long time these days, and so you don't kind of have that organisational knowledge. And then I think you know one of the other drivers is with, like you know the tertiary education. There's no sort of unit in an engineering degree or there's no kind of course that covers dangerous goods compliance or regulation, so there's no kind of formal way for people to really learn that, and so people are kind of like learning on the job, so to speak. And you know there are training organisations like we do training, but I think it's a different type of training to have that level of expertise. And you know, I think there's organisations like the Australian Institute of Dangerous Goods Consultants does a great job job.

David Irvine:

But yeah, I I think that there's a gap there and I think, you know, thinking is strategies about how to address that and get more people up to speed is a good thing and and I've seen a range of people talking about that but I think the other thing as well is thinking about how you can use technology to bridge some of those gaps, because obviously, things that you can do with AI now is going in a whole other area and so I don't think that's ever going to completely replace like a dangerous goods consultant.

David Irvine:

But I think that there's that kind of base, because there's a big gap between, you know, this kind of base level of understanding and maybe getting to a mid level of like competence and knowledge around dangerous goods. And then you're always going to have these complex scenarios where there's major hazard facilities and you know mining companies that have explosives and radioactive and all of that stuff. That's complicated and the the risks are really high. But then I think if you think about like retail environments or warehouse and they're dealing in small packaged goods but they have a high volume and there's not massive tanks, then there's some really good applications there where technology can help close those gaps. But there's definitely driving forces of like a gap in knowledge which at the moment we're seeing is kind of increased over the last few years in particular.

Patrick Gee:

So you think those changes in the workforce will have an impact on safety and compliance in the coming years.

David Irvine:

I think that it ultimately will.

David Irvine:

But I think that what we're seeing is it's kind of like opposing things happening there, like the regulators are more proactive.

David Irvine:

So I think that what we're seeing is it's kind of like opposing things happening there, like the regulators are more proactive.

David Irvine:

So I think that that's a good thing.

David Irvine:

So I think that's sort of driving some of the compliance behaviors and I think that the awareness because of what's happening with um, like you see in the news and the media, if there's fires, you know, or explosions that are fueled by dangerous goods, that I think the awareness is there, and then you know, or explosions that are fueled by dangerous goods, that I think the awareness is there, and then you know, as we were talking about before with you know the industrial manslaughter laws and increase penalties.

David Irvine:

So I I think that we can see the that, that the awareness is going up and with the regulators being more proactive, new regulations coming out to address, I think that we'll see that the compliance will improve and I guess it's just bridging that gap in the knowledge to help people do it. And so I think that kind of goes back to my point about helping the technology to do that. Because if you think about the scenarios where you've got that super high risk stuff like major hazard facilities and, you know, radioactive, explosive, those types of things that are quite complex yes, there's a lot out of them in Australia but then that bulk of the stuff in that kind of retail where small packaged goods, that's where I think that we could kind of close those gaps ultimately.

Patrick Gee:

Yeah, sure. And in regards to those shortages, how do you get more people into the field? What's your pitch to people to become a dangerous goods consultant?

David Irvine:

Yeah, my pitch is I mean, I've been in health and safety for over 20 years and so I think it's all sort of like it is the greater good of helping people and businesses understand the risks with the goods that they're trying to deal with in their business. So my kind of approach and attitude to it is, you know, going out to businesses is really to help, help them and help them understand what they're trying to do. So I think that there is a bit of without sounding too over the top like there is this kind of greater good of helping people and educating them, ensuring that people go home safely. And so I think going out and working with businesses that you know, when you start don't have any awareness at all, and for me, helping them comply with the regulations is important because they want to do that as a business. But for me it's more about, you know, ensuring that people go home safely, they understand the risks and so they can control that.

David Irvine:

An d then I think you know, as we're seeing in society today, there's a bigger push around, like the environment and like ESG, and so ensuring that the environment is protected as well as important to me as it is to a range of other people. So I think complying with the rules is one thing, but I think you know ensuring that people go home safely and ensuring that we protect the environment that we have in particular, like waterways and things like that which we've seen can be so badly exposed when there's a spill of dangerous goods to me those things are important. So I think that's my kind of pitch to people about like why do you do it? That's why I do it. And then I think the other thing as well is if people are interested in because you know the regulations and the standards and the way that things interact. It can be complex, but once you kind of get your head around it it's kind of like a puzzle, and so I think if people are into that type of stuff, like engineering, and solving problems.

David Irvine:

It's actually a really cool thing, because there's layers to it, yeah. And so it's not like you just kind of like learn it and you know everything. I learn literally new things by the hour about dangerous goods, yeah, so I think that there's that element to it as well, like there's a lot of complexity there it's like fulfilling, satisfying, engaging, right a lot of absolutely like you definitely need to bring your a game like every day to work.

David Irvine:

And the range of questions that we get asked is you know, like the whole spectrum of you know, someone that doesn't really know much at all to someone that's you know has radioactive on a mine site in like the Pilbara and they want to transport it to South Australia. How do you do that? You know so, um, so yeah, so it's quite from that perspective, as well as diverse, and I guess with all the industries that you deal with, there's a wide range of industries you get exposed to as well. So it's pretty much every industry you can think of has some type of dangerous goods in there, and so, yeah, so I think that's the other thing is just sort of it's very diverse and broad. So yeah.

Melissa Hampton:

So coming back to, I guess, compliance processes and it's quite manual, you would say the current, existing processes these days, spreadsheets and outdated systems are there any tools or digital solutions that you would suggest? How can people go about making things a bit more efficient?

David Irvine:

yeah for sure. So there's quite a lot of things out there at the moment. And so you know, historically, as you said, mel, when we go and talk to people, they've got spreadsheets. They might have a pretty simplistic SDS library of things that they have, of the safety, you know, data sheets that they have on site, and so I think, in terms of tools that are out there, so there's a range of things.

David Irvine:

But I think the area where we're really going to see growth is around AI. And so you know, when we were talking before about the complexity and the layers of the regulations, whereas maybe like five years ago, if you're trying to do that in software, trying to do that programmatically, it's not really feasible to do it the way that everything kind of interacts, whereas now we've got ai, it's getting to the point where it's kind of smart enough to do that, to overlay, you know, like the, the regulations, the, the standards and all of those kind of nuances that we were talking about before, if the ai and I guess that the prompts are written in the right way and it's still evolving, that we believe that that is definitely going to be the future to kind of answer those, you know, like the day-to-day questions and I think, as AI is literally, you know, in the next five years is going to like revolutionise a lot of things that we do. And I was actually talking to someone today and they used the analogy or the the example of. You know, ai today is kind of like iPhone version one, right, and now we're on kind of iPhone version 16, and I think when we look back in five or ten years, we're going to go look at where we came from right, and so I think that that's look at where we came from right, and so I think that that's where the future in sort of compliance is in particular, and I think there's always going to be a role for experts to play.

David Irvine:

But I think that that kind of interaction with AI is going to be critical because I think you know people, as we've been talking about like there's a whole heap of reasons why people don't have the knowledge and experience that they need to, and what we're seeing with businesses as well is that you know they're storing more and more dangerous goods for a whole heap of reasons. Like post-COVID there was definitely a spike of like stockpiling things because people were worried that like the supply chain broke down and maybe that's starting to calm down a bit now. But I think there are more and more dangerous goods, in particular, like you know, with batteries and things like that we've been talking about like that's not going to change, and so it comes back to people, you know, have the dangerous goods. They're storing more, the regulations are getting more complicated and people need to make decisions in real time and I think that what we see is people lack the confidence to make those decisions as well, and so I think with ai, that's going to be a good first level for people to get the answers and also to do things like what if? Type scenarios.

David Irvine:

So once someone gets compliant and they might say, hey, we want to try and enter a new market, or you know, we can see that if we imported, like ethanol from china, we can get it 20 cheaper than if we bought it locally and we want to start doing that. You know, what does that do to our compliance obligations? What are the rules that we need to comply with, and all that stuff. And if you just go and sort of put those things into chat, gpt or like some large language model, then you're definitely going to get like the the answers aren't going to necessarily be the right answers, and so I think that's where it gets back to.

David Irvine:

Ai is great, but the model that gets used and the prompts behind it and the logic and the expertise that you need that to ensure that you get a greater accuracy on your answers. So that's a bit of a long-winded answer, but I think that that's kind of where we see it going is. Definitely AI is where it's going to be at, but it's got to be done in the right way and I think over time it will become more and more accurate as well, as long as those models get trained properly, if that makes sense.

Patrick Gee:

So, yeah, what are some of the most commonplace compliance gaps you see when working with organisations and how can they be addressed?

David Irvine:

Yeah, so I think we've kind of touched on a few of them already, but I think that that sort of understanding what dangerous goods a company has on site and then understanding the, the amounts and type that they have and where that sits according to their storage threshold, which then you know drives their compliance obligations, so that's probably number one. Number two is definitely like the training and being aware of what type of training and having the right training in the right context. I think the other thing that people kind of struggle with as well is like segregation and understanding. Trying to read a segregation matrix while you know, if you don't look at that all the time, that can be hard to read, and so I think, understanding what that is, and then I think, some of the other things as well that people kind of I don't know struggle with, but where we see gaps as well as disposing of, like dangerous goods or containers that have had dangerous goods in them, and knowing what's the right way to do that.

David Irvine:

And so we've seen examples where customers and this is a good example, it's a bad example, but it's a good example to make my point they had bins that were dedicated to put waste in, but what they were doing was they were putting aerosols that had been, you know, had been impacted in some way, and then they had sort of flammable liquid containers that were empty, or sometimes it might have had a little bit in them, and they're putting them all in the same bin, sort of throwing things in there and shutting the lid and basically creating like an explosive atmosphere, right, and so it's those types of things about getting them to think about, okay, well, that's, you shouldn't put those things in the same bin when you're looking to dispose it. So I think that is something that we see as well. And then I think you know the other thing that I touched on before is sort of like the risk assessments, knowing how to go out and do that, and then you know just sort of having regular checks on housekeeping and making sure that things are, you know, stored in the right way and you don't have waste in the aisles, and a range of other things. So, yes, there's a bit of a mismatch of things in there. But yeah, they would be kind of the key compliance gaps that we see.

David Irvine:

And then probably the other one is people have typically got an emergency plan.

David Irvine:

They have an emergency plan in place, but if they don't kind of understand the dangerous goods compliance, maybe it's lacking that focus on having things in there if there's a spill or if there's a fire that's involved.

David Irvine:

Dangerous goods yeah, that would probably be the main things and there's a few small things. Like you know, people might have spill kits but then they haven't gone and read the SDS to understand well, what's the recommended PPE to deal with this if there is a spill and and so you know they go yeah, we've got spill kits, well, let's go and have a look. Okay, you go and look at what's in the spill kit and then go well, let's look at the SDSs for the stuff that you're storing going, well, these two things don't match right. You've got a a gap in the PPE stuff that you've got. So I think the other one. It kind of ties back to the compliance obligations, just knowing when they need to notify the regulator. You know based on how much they've got, and when you've got to, you know get written advice from Fire Rescue if you're over a particular amount or you're going to make changes, and things like that.

Patrick Gee:

Yeah, so a lot of it really comes back to education and awareness, right. So how should businesses approach compliance training and what are some of the biggest mistakes you see in DG training programs?

David Irvine:

Yeah.

David Irvine:

So I think the key things with training, as we've already talked about a few times, obviously there's like a legal requirement there to do it and then also to track that it's been done.

David Irvine:

So you know who's done what training requirement there to do it and then to also to track that it's been done and that the uh so. So you know who's done what, what training, um, and then sort of ensure that people also get a top up or like a refresher of that training on a regular basis, whether that's annually or every two years, because I think once we we see a lot oh, we train those people five years ago. Well, you know, one is the dangerous good you were storing five years ago. Does that relate to what you're doing today? And then, really, you know, we need to keep people up to date because regulations change and things like that. So I think that there's that component. I think the other thing is to make the training relevant in the context, in terms of the tasks and the activities that the staff are doing on site and then also relating to the dangerous goods that you actually have on site as well. So when we will go out and run training, typically we'll ask for you know well what's your business, what do you do, what are the dangerous goods that you store, so then you can adjust the course and have real-world examples that relate to what they're actually doing on site, and then I think you know.

David Irvine:

The other thing, ultimately, is you know well-trained employees can help you manage the overall risk of the business.

David Irvine:

So I think that we see that once we train people and we, you know, let them know about the risks and we basically enlighten them that then they're sort of your first line of really, you know, defense in sort of ensuring that nothing ever escalates, so things don't escalate to the point where there is an explosion or a fire because people are aware of all those things I was talking about, and so your staff are your first line of defense in helping prevent the incidents happen in the first place.

David Irvine:

So I think they're the key things. And then I think the other thing to think about as well is, you know, given the profile of your workforce and their level of skill and knowledge as it comes to dangerous goods, you know, in some scenarios, going out and doing things face to face are going to be better if it's a high risk activity or if the people. You know that the staff don't really know anything about dangerous goods and you need to do some hands-on things and doing that face to face is better. And then some scenarios we're doing it remote over zoom or some other tech like that also works. And if you're trying to educate or train, you know you've got officers all over Australia for argument's sake. We'll often do that and you'll have people dialing in from different places, so that will work as well.

Melissa Hampton:

So how do you see the role of regulators evolving and do you think they'll move towards more of a proactive enforcement rather than responding to incidents?

David Irvine:

Yeah, so I think our experience is that that is already occurring. Here in Victoria in particular, we're seeing pretty much weekly we're going out and doing site assessments and in probably 50% of the WorkSafe has already been out there and the company has been issued improvement notices or they've been issued a prohibition notice, which means you have to stop doing that activity, like right now. And so I think that's already occurring and I think that the challenge for businesses is that if you're not proactively managing your dangerous good compliance, you get the regulator come out and you get an improvement notice. Then you're on their timeline, right, so they give you a date of when things need to be in place. Depending on the nature of it is. Typically you have weeks to address whatever the improvement notice is that they've issued, and then so worst case scenario is that they can shut you down right. So I think that it's already happening.

David Irvine:

We see it every week and definitely more prevalent here in victoria, and I know it's the same in other states because we do things in other states as well, and you know, I think that's really driven off increase in amount of incidents. You know, like in the, the examples in victoria, increasing amount of incidents. You know, like in the examples in Victoria that come to mind are, you know, there were the fires in, you know, derrimut, which were obviously one person lost their life, and that same place has caught on fire again and that company has now gone into liquidation and they're currently still under investigation by WorkSafe and by EPA, so that's not done yet. And then there was actually a fire with a warehouse that was storing the lithium-ion batteries and that was only about 1km away from where my house is and that was literally like six weeks ago or even less. So I think that those incidents are sort of driving the regulators to be more proactive and so, yeah, we're just saying that there's a definite sort of change there.

Melissa Hampton:

Yeah, good, and what industries do you think will be the most impacted by changes in dangerous goods regulation over the next decade?

David Irvine:

Good question. I mean, I think that it's going to be. Ultimately it's going to be all industries. I think it's the ones that are going to feel it the most, so the more mature industries, like mining and oil and gas, and those businesses that have always stored and handled dangerous goods they've, in general, have it under control and then I think the ones where it's going to impact the most are the ones where they're breaking into new industry verticals that they haven't been in before and so they start, you know, storing and handling dangerous goods for the first time, or the quantities that they're doing are increasing significantly, and then they're only just becoming aware that, oh, you know, there's actually regulations that we need to comply with, and often the first time that they find out about that is from their insurer, when they go to update their insurance, and then they're sort of saying are you aware that you know you need to comply with all these regulations? So I think it's a lot of those things.

David Irvine:

Like, you know, retail warehouse and like logistics. We're seeing like a lot of cosmetic companies as well, with all the perfumes and aerosols. You know, beauty products in general is like a booming industry and like a lot of the stuff that they have is actually classified as dangerous goods. And then you've got health care and schools. Schools actually have quite a lot of dangerous goods, surprising enough when you think about it. Obviously, you've got the science labs, but then you've got schools, have got, you know, swimming pools with chlorine and all the things that go with that. They're obviously running operations in terms of, you know, gardening. So they've got fertilizer and petrol and fuel and a range of other things, so cleaning chemicals and aerosols yeah, exactly right.

David Irvine:

So I think that that's where we're. I think that they're the ones that will be exposed the most and I think, you know, even surprisingly enough, it's often some of the government. You know areas, whether they be schools or health care facilities, are the ones often where we see some of the gaps as well, which is concerning in a way that you know you would think that the government would be the main ones that would be following the regulations, and we've seen some gaps there as well. Not in all the cases, but there's been some examples where you sort of would raise your eyebrows and go really so yeah, so I think it's across the board, but I think the ones that have always done it well and have been exposed to it, I think we'll be able to adapt. And then I think it's those ones where they're new industries or they're less mature. Obviously, they're the ones that are going to face the bigger challenges.

Melissa Hampton:

For these organisations that do find themselves in this instance, perhaps adopting a new process or in a new vertical, what would you suggest for them if they don't really know where to go or what to do first?

David Irvine:

I think a good place to start is WorkSafe or the regulator in every state, typically like the resources that they have available on their websites, is a really good place to start is. Worksafe or the regulator in every state, typically like the resources that they have available on their websites, is a really good place to start. And in every state there's a code of practice for storing and handling dangerous goods, and so for those people that don't know, the code of practice is basically the regulations, but written in a more consumable and more easily understandable format. So I wouldn't say it's the world's most exciting read, but it's definitely one that you can understand, and so I think if people were unsure of their obligations, that's where I would start.

David Irvine:

I would say to people you should go and look at the regulator website. Uh, go and have a look at the code of practice and sort of get a general understanding of what your obligations are. Contacting people like us at DG Network is a good thing to do, but I think there's some self-education that you can do first before you kind of come to people like us and we're obviously happy to help. But if it was me and it was my company, that's where I would start and I think that those resources available are pretty good. And Safe Work Australia also has really good stuff on their website as well. That's great Good tips.

Patrick Gee:

If you could give businesses storing and handling dangerous goods one bit of advice for the future, what would that be?

David Irvine:

Understand what dangerous goods in the amount that you have at your site. That is the key thing, because that is the under underlying principle of foundation to manage the risk and to manage your compliance and so they should have that at their fingertips, and so that that's sort of the key thing, and then everything sort of cascades off that. So it's pretty basic, but you would be surprised that a lot of companies can't answer that question easily.

Patrick Gee:

Yeah, the quantities change everything. Yeah, exactly 100%. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast, david. Really awesome to hear your perspective on all of that. What's next for you guys?

David Irvine:

We're involved in sort of three main companies that we run around dangerous goods. So we've got Dangerous Goods Network, which is the consulting stuff that we've been talking to you today about, where we help companies with their sort of storage and handling, going out, doing site assessments, writing up reports and doing a range of things about that and providing advice. We also run DigiTrainer, and so we'll run a range of training courses. We do them in person, we'll do them over Zoom with like experienced instructors, and then we also have self-paced e-learning options and we do partner with StoreMaster and deliver some of the training with you guys as well.

David Irvine:

The other part which we've been working on over the last 12 months pretty much is that we also run another business called dangerous goods technologies, and so we're actually we've got one piece of software at the moment which we have a few customers on called sds connect, which obviously helps customers manage their sds's, but we're about to release in may a new piece of software called DG Expert, which is really around AI compliance, and what we're going to be focusing on first, to start with, that is, you'll be able to store your safety data sheets in there, and then we're focusing on the storage and handling regulations for each of the states in Australia and then the Australian standards that also apply and help businesses do those risk assessments that historically they've struggled with to do.

David Irvine:

Through the power of AI and the knowledge that we've got, we're going to help them do that. So I think that's sort of our next big thing is to do that push into the technology and software space. There's always going to be a need for consulting. There's always going to be a need for consulting. There's always going to be a need for training, and we kind of see this as the next area that's going to evolve in the industry, and so we want to be part of that and help shape the future of what that's going to look like.

Melissa Hampton:

Exciting times.

Patrick Gee:

Great tools to make it a lot easier for people. By the sounds of it, that's awesome.

David Irvine:

Yeah, exactly right, and I think that the whole concept behind it and why we called it, you know, dg Expert is really that you don't need to be an expert, right Like a non-expert can sort of get those answers to the questions. And so, yeah, I think that's sort of the key thing that we're looking to do, because you know the reality of like the majority of questions that we're answering we're helping people things to do. A lot of that can be done with, you know, the tech that's out there today. And, yes, there's always going to be these super complex, multiple things where we're going to need experts to do it, but we have the belief that, like the vast majority of stuff that we're doing on a storage and handling perspective, we think that tech can do that better.

Melissa Hampton:

Thank you, David. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it too. That's awesome.

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Mel Hampton

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Pat Gee

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